Called to Create: An LDSPMA Podcast

Susan Easton Black

May 04, 2022 LDSPMA Season 2 Episode 7
Called to Create: An LDSPMA Podcast
Susan Easton Black
Show Notes Transcript

Susan Easton Black’s accomplishments range from becoming the first female professor of religion at Brigham Young University to writing 170 books, including President M. Russell Ballard’s biography, to being a key partner on her pickleball team. Tune into her delightful conversation with our host, Connie Sokol. You’ll be glad you did. 

Email:  susan_black@byu.edu

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Susan & George: Devotional 






Connie: 0:00 Welcome back, I’m Connie Sokol, your host of “Called to Create,” and today I am thrilled to have the guest that we do. She is fabulous, and she is just like your best sister, your best friend, your best, favorite aunt. She is that kind of woman. And yet she has so much to share about the gospel, about Joseph Smith, about life.

Connie: 0:28 It is Susan Easton Black, and we are so happy to have you here today. Welcome, Susan. 

Susan: 0:32 Oh, thank you. It’s great to be here, actually. 

Connie: 0:36 It is such a treat, and I am going to share her bio in my usual informal way. I have, you know, respected and admired her from afar, but also in some different experiences that we've shared together.

Connie: 0:46 But just in case you are not fully aware of the amazingness of Susan Easton Black, she was actually reared in Long Beach, California, and she has a lot of firsts that she's done. She was the first woman to teach religion at BYU, and not wait, talk about that. And the first woman to receive the Karl G. Maeser Distinguished Faculty Lecturer Award for her research and writing, the highest award given to a professor at BYU.

Connie: 1:10 She was the recipient of the 2021 Lifetime Achievement Award in writing from the Latter-day Saint Publishing and Media Association. And I was privileged enough to be able to give her that award. Oh, my goodness your presentation, your acceptance speech, was incredible. She's also served two missions for the historic sites department and as a mission psychologist for LDS Social Services and served a mission to the Nauvoo, Illinois Temple and the mission to the St. George Temple's visitor center.

Connie: 1:35 She is a mother of three sons and she enjoys writing, speaking, and being with George. And we're going to talk about that too. 

Connie: 1:42 You are a retired professor of religion from the religion department. And let me just say that's where I first met her. I was a student working there, and I loved and adored her. We all did because she was just a delight. But you are a retired professor and also an author of 170 books.

Connie: 1:58 And we're going to talk about that in a second too. When I look at that vast learning and sharing of learning, right at the beginning when you're talking with your grandmother, what were some of the seedlings that really got that going? Because that's an incredible lifetime of gospel study.

Susan: 2:13 Well, my grandmother dropped out of school at eighth grade. And so you can imagine she valued education, something that she couldn't have. And in the time period in which we live, there were no barriers to me going on to school. Although I have to say, most of my best friends, when high school was done, they were done. And I kept going to school and my dad wasn't that impressed.

Susan: 2:44 And I remember him saying, “Hey, Susan, do you want to write a book? I mean, is that it?” And I go, “Hey, Dad, I want to write the library.” So you know, I'm on my way, but hopefully I have longer to continue. 

Connie: 2:58 You are well on your way. And was that daunting? I mean, when you wanted to write that book. What was the next step for you?

Connie: 3:05 Was it, I just want to learn and then I just want to share it. What was that process like for you? I know there's lots of writers listening and they kind of want to know what was that journey like for you just in those high points? 

Susan: 3:16 The first book is always the hardest, right? And a lot of people start chapter one and they nurse chapter one again and again, and I learned in that first process, you gotta write all the way through.

Susan: 3:30 And although the first write isn't good. It's like eating dinner off a paper plate, right? And you want fine china. And so that first you write, and most of the rest of your life you rewrite and you rewrite and rewrite until really you think it's fine china, and you hope a publisher will have the same thought.

Connie: 3:51 Oh, my gosh. That is such a…I had to write that down. First, you write and then you spend the rest of your life rewriting. It's true. That is incredible. It's so true. And do you have, out of all those books, I know I asked this question. It's the worst question ever, but is there one book that is surprisingly significant to you?

Connie: 4:09 Of course there is award-winning and there's the very successful one, all the different things that would be normal markers. Is there a book that is more significant to you than another? 

Susan: 4:18 The significant books to me personally are books that have stories of my own ancestry, with the idea when I get there in the next life, I'd like to know something about them and, you know, have a backup squad that's cheering me on. And any book I've done on Christ or Joseph Smith always stands out. 

Connie: 4:38 And let's talk about that for a minute. There's so many different ways that you could go in the gospel to niche down and share about because you are so learned. It's beautiful. And the way you share the gospel is just so accessible.

Connie: 4:49 It's easy to understand, and it's beautiful to get all the insights as you read and listen, it really is. That's such a gift you have. Where did this interest come about Joseph Smith? You've written prolifically on him. You speak for an hour without notes, talking about dates and places and times. It's phenomenal if anyone has seen you speak. Tell us where did this interest and this driver for studying Joseph's life come from? 

Susan: 5:13 Well, I think I'd have to go back to my grandmother, that when I was a kid, she would tell me stories. And because of her lack of education, she would say, I can only tell you stories that are true.

Susan: 5:25 And I wanted Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and I got Joseph Smith, and I got stories about my ancestors who crossed the Plains. And I can remember one particular story she told me about her mother who crossed the Plains, wore out her shoes, her brother's shoes and walked into the Salt Lake Valley wearing gunny sacks on her feet.

Susan: 5:49 And my grandmother would say, “Would you do that?” And I would say, “Well, who do you think would be looking?” And she would then say, you know, she'd say, “My mother had faith and you don’t.” And wow, it hit me hard and she would repeat it night after night. And pretty soon I found myself going to bed with a flashlight, scriptures under the covers.

Susan: 6:10 And I guess in some way trying to say, “I have faith too.” And then I came to BYU as a student, had a fabulous teacher, Milton V. Backman, Jr. in church history. 

Connie: 6:25 That's who I worked for. Yes! He's wonderful. Sorry, go ahead.

Susan: 6:29 Okay. It was amazing. And he could tell me some of the stories I'd heard so many times from my grandmother, but then he could tell me where to look in the library. And I was hooked from that point on. 

Connie: 6:42 And he is incredible. The details that he would know and remember. 

Susan: 6:48 Just amazing. 

Connie: 6:49 That is phenomenal. And then take us through, so you're going through, you're doing your thing, you're teaching, you're writing. Then to become the first female professor in the religion department, that's huge!

Connie: 7:01 Take us through that experience. What was that like? What were some of the things that you needed to move through? And, you know, we have to all recognize there's going to be some barriers you're breaking down some difficulty that you're going to face, obviously. So what was that experience like for you?

Susan: 7:15 Well, I think my journals would sell for a fortune. Okay, so, unedited, right? So I'm teaching at BYU. And our president of the university was Dallin H Oaks. And he had grown up in a home with a single-parent mother. And, apparently, during his tenure as president, he was concerned that there was a woman that was in each college at the university.

Susan: 7:43 And he discovered it had been 107 years and no woman that was a professor-type in religion. And so, he looked over the few of us that were teaching, and not necessarily teaching in typical areas, such as nursing, education, physical education for women. And so I got tapped and my initial response was, “No, I don't want to be a fireside queen.”

Susan: 8:11 You know, I had plans. I was teaching financial portfolio analysis. I'd been to school. I thought I'd done my dues. I had a son once call me and say, “Hey, Mom, you ever talk in Washington DC? And I go, “Sure, why, I believe at the visitor center mission conferences.” And he said, “I'm about to talk at the Pentagon.”

Susan: 8:32 And I said, “Oh, Todd, you're living my dream.” In other words, I had seen myself going a different direction, but because of Elder Oaks. I decided, okay, fireside queen here it comes. And I remember my first time in a religion meeting, one of the men asked if I was there to take notes and another one liked my perfume, and I thought, I am not going to fit in.

Susan: 8:59 And, it took quite a while to feel like I belonged and was in the right place. But I'm forever grateful because it gave me an opportunity to hone my talents in a field that actually really, really matters when it all comes down to it. 

Connie: 9:18 Beautifully said, and I love how the Church is very much emphasizing the need for both men and women to make that whole in looking at things and perspectives and all of that.

Connie: 9:30 And there's been beautiful studies done by Susan R Madsen that talks about the need for women. Yes. Is there anything for women that are listening, and men, because oftentimes even when I'm sitting in meetings with men, what I find is they just don't know. They're just not aware. 

Connie: 9:43 Do you have a tip that you learned or a skill that you learned that, You know what, this helped me in a council setting to help create that comfortable environment for me to be seen as that council colleague? 

Susan: 9:57 I taught religion about 38 years and became an associate dean in general education and honors.

Susan: 10:03 And I've always liked it when men are still gallant and they open the door, they pull out a chair or something like that. I still appreciate it, and perhaps other women do not. But I appreciate that it took the men a while to appreciate I could go toe to toe intellectual. So, some of my favorite meetings have been when they've asked a question, everyone goes silence, and I can raise my hand and know the answer.

Susan: 10:37 I’d say, well, maybe that's a prideful thing. But I think a few moments like that, suddenly I was looked at different than just someone who is filling a slot. 

Connie: 10:49 I think you're absolutely right. And I think that's the nature of the beast, right?

Connie: 10:52 If something new is happening, then there has to be that sort of credibility established. Not that it should be, but that's just the way that it rolls. And I think that's so gorgeous that you broke that barrier and so beautifully with the femininity and yet that fluidity of being able to have the intellectual prowess on that side.

Connie: 11:13 And yet, like you said, it's simply that we are valuing each other and that's the beauty of councils. And I think it's so amazing to me that your experience in writing a biography is for M. Russell Ballard who was such a proponent of councils.

Connie: 11:28 Let's segue into that for just a minute. That must have been absolutely incredible. How did that come about? And we'll talk about some of the takeaways from that.

Susan: 11:35 I had seen M. Russell Ballard in several settings and actually sat on the stand with him a few times.

Susan: 11:43 But there's no question I was on the side. But then I got called in by his secretary to meet with him and being asked to write the history of a program in the church called Just Serve. There's no question his contribution to that program has been huge. And because of him, we now see Just Serve literally all over the world, as people reach out to help their neighbors in significant ways.

Susan: 12:09 And so at the very same meeting that I'm sitting in with him, I asked, Well, where's your biography so I won't be calling you all the time on different things. At that point, he said he’d had a family history done but never a biography. 

Susan: 12:25 And suddenly the tenor of what was going on changed. And I was  going to do two things now: write the biography and the history of Just Serve.

Connie: 12:33 That's incredible. And were you nervous at all or did it just feel like this is the right time and thing? 

Susan: 12:40 Well, at the time, I think he was 91 years old, and I felt a real pressure that anything else I'm working on immediately moves to the back burner. 

Susan: 12:51 And his life, it's not just a cookie-cutter kind of perfect as he's growing up in a home where actually can trace his history back to Mary Fielding Smith and Hyrum Smith. But as you see him growing up, his parents are not active. 

Susan: 13:08 And the choices that he makes to be active. And in seminary, a choice he makes to go on a mission. And then his parents find out, after the fact, he's submitted his mission papers. I'm just impressed that he on his own made such incredible choices in his youth. I mean, no wonder the Lord wanted him. When it came down to, Can you make choices that will impact an entire world?

Susan: 13:37And I just think, truly the hand of the Lord has been in his life. 

Connie: 13:42 Gorgeous. And I know this has got to be almost impossible, but I love asking impossible questions. As you went through that process with him…Well, first, were you nervous? What did you do to stay in this, this grounded, calm space? 

Susan: 13:55 Well, I knew that it was not about me, and I think that matters. That as a writer, you can't get in the way of the Holy Ghost. So I knew it wasn’t about me. I knew it was about somebody just incredible.

Susan: 14:12 And so when I could think that it was about him, I didn't need to be front and center. I needed to be the person taking notes. 

Connie: 14:20 That's that Peter experience where it's focus on the Savior, not the waves. I love that. Wow. So here's the impossible part of the question.

Connie: 14:29 Is there an experience that stands out to you about him? You’ve shared beautifully some of that background. But as you were going through, I know it has to be for every biographer that there are experiences that they share that really resonate with you deeply and personally. Was there one experience that stood out to you with him?

Susan: 14:48 Well, yes, you realize I got to interview several of his friends, which means apostles and seventies and some of the big leaders in town. But I think the experience that probably stands out the most is when he spoke about his wife. I was there after she had passed and his love of her and absolute testimony of the next life and they would be together forever..

Susan: 15:17 And his children and how he felt about his great love for his children and how they had stepped in and helped him in this time of loneliness and how grateful he was to the Lord of eternal covenants that tied his family together.

Connie: 15:34 Wow. That's so tender, after a beautiful life well lived. And he was so strong on family and especially the women. He was so sweet about that. In fact, a friend of mine was at the MTC, and she said, and I'm paraphrasing, but this was her experience that they were in a meeting and his wife was teaching and he came in and just quietly walked up the podium and then whispered in her ear something, like a message or something, and then he left. 

Connie: 15:59 And then after he left, she just said, Oh, he still gives me tingles. Like, it was just the sweetest thing! And I thought, that is like the best example of relationship right there, show, don't tell, right? Of just being able to see his influence and his love of his wife and his children and really anyone who was in his presence,

Connie:  16:19 He just had such that great, beautiful love. With those experiences and those credits with the books and then the speaking. And then you also did missions and things like that. How was a little bit about what that experience was like with the psychology or with the Nauvoo and those missions. 

Connie: 16:36 You went to the St. George temple visitor center. And what was the skillset that you either needed or gained by doing those kind of missions at that time? Because you're seasoned, you've got lots to share. What was it like doing the missions that way? 

Susan: 16:51 So my husband, George and I have now served four missions and George has held leadership positions in the past, and I guess you would say, maybe, me too, but we did not on those missions.

Susan: 17:04 And I think that that is very significant because it means we were willing to do what we were asked. And I was amazed, on each of the missions we were asked to do something that we already had talents for, and yet asked to do things that we didn't have a talent for. For both of us, we've been used to speaking, but we haven't been the one who's had to make sure the room is ready, the lights are on, the heat is going.

Susan: 17:31 You know, the people who had to come. Suddenly we're asked to do that kind of thing. And I go, “So, George, do you know how to do that?” And we both needed to step back, and I'd say it was a really rounding-out experience of our church experiences. And what I really liked on the mission was talking to people one-on-one rather than the big classroom or auditorium that I've been speaking in.

Susan: 17:58 You know, we were no longer the, quote, headliners. We were the, quote, senior couple. Whatever the mission president hoped we could do and then obviously was disappointed. I remember one saying to me, “Can you make bread and bring it to the next event?”

Susan: 18:15 And I turned to George and I go, “Do you know how to do that? I have no idea.” And so it was, it was a good experience. It was humbling in many ways. 

Connie: 18:24 That is fabulous. And let's segue perfectly right there to your sweet husband, George. He actually was my former bishop and I remember having so much fun with him.

Connie: 18:33 We actually did a rap because he was so enamored of basketball. We did a rap to basketball for him, this musical thing that we did for him, just to celebrate it. But his signature was that sense of humor and that optimism. And I see that in both of you.

Connie: 18:48 What are some of the key pieces that you have felt… You're married later in life. You both have spouses that have passed, and you share the beautiful story of how you two came together on the devotional. We'll put the link to that below in the BYU [Ensign College] Devotional. What was that like moving into that later stage of life, getting married, do you want to just share a brief lead up to that? 

Susan: 19:14 Well, George and I met in 1976 and I was in that first woman teaching religion, and not every man was happy to see me.

Susan: 19:25 But George seemed pretty happy and he was funny and he was always cheerful. So we were friends. After a year he did other things in his career and would keep bouncing back to BYU on different times. And I just kept walking to and from work. And suddenly 38 years later, he's calling me on the phone and saying he'd like to see me.

Susan: 19:45 And I'm like, That's really odd. And, you know, in religion [department], it's not like we're in each other's houses. And so he comes to the door and he throws his arms around me. But the way he tells it is, I'm a big woman and he couldn't break away. No! Suddenly, you know, I'm pushing him back saying, “Hey, you did want to see me, I mean, what's up?”

Susan: 20:09 He comes inside, we’re in my front room, and you're right, he just asked me to marry him. Anyway, and I took him serious. I go, “Oh, no.” And inviting him to leave. And then I go, “Oh, George, you've always been so funny.” And he goes, “No, no, I'm serious.” And from that point on, it was a courtship I hadn't planned on.

Susan: 20:29 I mean, I had planned I would be a widow and do my own thing. I saw literally decades alone. But you know, I started laughing so much and finally a year later when he's showing me a ring and telling me it's a diamond, and I'm saying, “I don't see the diamond, George.” And he goes, “You just got to get it in the right light.” You know, finally when I agree.

Susan: 20:54 Really it's been some of the happiest times of my life. He truly is optimistic and happy every day. Although we're now getting older and stuff, he hasn't lost that. You know, when you marry older in life, you don't have the issue of kids in the home.

Susan: 21: 09 You don't have the financial concerns. Neither of us are high maintenance. I don't know, it's just fun to be together. We both love the Lord. We both love the gospel. We both love our families, enjoy spending time with friends and especially time with each other. 

Connie: 21:29 That is just beautiful. And for those listening, especially that later in life, either those hoping for that, or, you know, have experienced a little bit of that, I really see both of you having that beautiful sense of humor. And that's such a glue in a relationship 

Susan: 21:43 Well, you know that Captain Moroni never goes into a battle unless he's going to win.

Susan: 21:49 And so, if you fight with your mate, it's not a win. It just doesn't work. And so, you know, you got to choose your battles and there are very few battles that I'm willing to go in and fight with George. 

Connie: 22:02 Okay. Gotta have just one tip that you have learned, something that's unique and significant to both of you that really helps you navigate the ups and downs and all the things that come, besides the humor. Is there anything that's a little bit unique?  

Susan: 22:15 You know, every day we kind of talk about what's our day going to be like. I mean, that just so helps so you don't spring some one on saying, “Oh, I've got to get to…” I mean, you just know. We go, “Okay. All right. That sounds good. How can we both help?” Anyway, that has been very helpful. And then, you know, pray in the morning, pray at night. Just have nice things to say.

Connie: 22:39 It's so simple. It's just so simple. And you two seem like you have so much fun. I mean, you just came back in from pickleball. So, obviously, you are a fun gal. But it just seems like you two, especially when he came to the LDSPMA conference. I was on the stand and I was handing out awards and I was kind of watching you guys out of the corner of my eye because you were just adorable.

Connie: 22:57 And you had sat down on a chair in front of the round table and he was like two or three chairs behind because I think either you had just sat down from receiving it or were about to get up. And all of a sudden I see him on his chair with the rollers, and he just scoots his legs next to you. And he had this cute schoolboy smile on his face.

Connie: 23:14 It was just the sweetest moment. And I think that his signature and symbolic of both of you. You just have this without guile, love of the Lord and love of each other and love of life, of all the good things that there are. And you just go about doing good. I know our time is short, but I would love to kind of segue to this, What's your next phase?

Connie: 23:38 You've done so many things and you've done incredible things. Speaking and writing and teaching and changing people's lives and strengthening their testimonies. It's just really an incredible legacy. What do you see from here? What are you working on, and what do you hope to be doing?

Connie: 23:54 Because you've got a lot left in you, lot of gas in the car. It's who you are. You're just a go-getter, and you see the potential. So what's ahead for you?  

Susan: 24:02 I see myself always writing. You know, I think when I die, I'm going to fall on a pencil somewhere. I see that as always, always an outlet.

Susan: 24:12 I really like sports that I can play. I'm not so big on watching them, but I hope I always do that. I play in senior games, so I hope I continue to do that. I mean, that's the plan. I'd like to still have my health. I'd like to have George with me all the time. And so you have a lot of hopes and dreams and some of them will be fulfilled, right.

Susan: 24:34 But others I need to be able to adjust. And I hope when any of those things fall apart for me and I can no longer beat the socks off anybody I know in pickleball or ping-pong that I can adjust to, I don't know, dominoes? And find happiness in the moment.

Connie: 24:55 I think you have done a beautiful job all the way along. And another thing that strikes me is that as you have gone along in your life, you've had this beautiful, ambitious, I can do these things, and you are absolutely intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, all those, physically in step with those possibilities.

Connie: 23:13 But then you've said, “What does the Lord want me to do?” And you have followed that. And I think from what you've shared today, especially, you can see how you are reaping all the fulfilling, meaningful things from that. You could have been all things. I love that line from Little Women where they said to Joe, You could have been, you know, a Senator or whatever, a politician.

Connie: 25:35 She said, I could have been a great many things. And I think, that's you, but you chose this path, the path less traveled and been the first in so many of these things and paved the way for so many other people–Sorry, it’s a little tender–in your beautiful, wonderful, optimistic, joyful, let's do this, have some fun way. It's just really incredible, Susan. And you just are literally a light. It's just a joy to talk with you today.

Susan: 26:00 Thanks so much. 

Connie: 26:02 Just to joy. Can you tell those that are listening who are going to want to get a hold of you in the best possible way to find your work and find you, what's the best way to reach you?

Susan: 26:10 Always email. I'm not good on phone. You know, in other words, email, I know I can get to it. Phone, I'm not good on the immediacy of it. 

Connie: 26:21 Fantastic. We will put your email in the show notes and then people can reach you that way. 

Connie: 26:25 We are so excited. And do you have a work that you're working on right now? Any sneak peek into the work in progress? 

Susan: 26:30 I'm writing a history of BYU Pathway. And then I'm also working on something for Covenant I'm excited about and it's something on the Three Witnesses.

Connie: 26:43 Oh, fantastic. And if you get a chance, “The Glorious Truths About Mother Eve'' is one of my favorites and read the foreword, is it in the introduction? She talks about an experience that she had with her mom. And it is just, it's a keeper. It's just a keeper. Just get the book just for that.

Connie: 26:57 Hey, this is so great. We always like to leave with one last thought. Lots of people who are listening, they feel called to create. That's why this is called what it is. Is there any tip or any last thoughts for people pursuing their path of this calling to create? Any one bit of advice or any one last thought that you want to share?

Susan: 27:17 Yeah. I think some people are real creative, like the piano, they can use every key, right? They can sing, they can dance, they can this, they can that. But if you want to get good at something, find the one key that works and then you just pursue it every day. Like, for me, it's never a good day unless I've written something.

Connie: 27:37 That is beautiful. Find the one key that works for you. I love that. And then value it and put some time into it every single day. You're exactly right. It's that, what we do on the daily makes all the difference. You are a gem. Susan, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Susan: 27:53 Hey, you're welcome. 

Connie: 28:30 And for those who love this interview and want more, go below rate, review, and subscribe. You can check out all our other interviews with people like Jenny Oaks Baker, Al Carraway, so many great interviews and so many good things to learn so that we can help you on your journey of being called to create.